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The word ‘TERF’ – http://wp.me/p2GtS9-gI

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  1. My interest is in protecting vulnerable girls who have found refuge from others issues in becoming Trans. Your post raises questions it would be good for them to ponder.
    1. Why are MTF so overtly sexual and glamourise in their presentation.
    2. Why are Locker demands predominantly MTF?
    3. Why is are MTF personalities as ‘met’ on social media extrovert, demanding, attention seeking and focused on themselves.
    4. Why is MTF claims of womanhood rooted in stereotype and a single representation of women?
    5. Why if equality is at the heart of the Transmovement is freedom of speech (where it challenges their narrative) unacceptable.
    6. Why do MTF believe the world must turn itself inside out to accommodate them?

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    • Fantastic questions! All of these things can easily be explained by male socialization and entitlement. Socialization and entitlement do not go away just because one chooses stereotypically female dress and calls oneself a “transwoman.” Hence, the extensive use of violent threats by transwomen when their narrative is challenged. They are reacting— using their decidedly male socialization— with outrage. How dare lesser beings (real women) challenge the supposed, inherent supremacy of born males (whether they choose to call themselves “men” or “transwomen”)? How dare the low caste— real women— challenge the supposed, exclusive right of born males to define reality?

      Liked by 3 people

    • I’m a sucker for the Q&A format, apparently. Also I sure as hell don’t want your protection.

      1. Why are MTF so overtly sexual and glamourise in their presentation.

      I could ask the same question about cis women, and I expect the answer would be about the same. Some people are into that for various reasons, and some aren’t. This is compounded by the fact it’s easier to pass with a face full of makeup.

      2. Why are Locker demands predominantly MTF?

      They are the ones bathroom bills are primarily aimed at, so it’s reasonable they are the loudest in opposing them. Trans men, by and large, just quietly start using the men’s restrooms when we pass enough to do so, and nobody cares.

      3. Why is are MTF personalities as ‘met’ on social media extrovert, demanding, attention seeking and focused on themselves.

      That tends to be the type of person who gets popular on social media? I have a casual friend who blogs about philosophy and TV shows, and she likes to joke about all 8 of her followers.

      4. Why is MTF claims of womanhood rooted in stereotype and a single representation of women?

      This is probably the circles I run in, but the primary claim to womanhood I hear is dysphoria. There is some gender essentialism thrown in, but not from everybody and not uniquely different from what I’ve heard trans men say. This is also an assertion that does not match my experiences, the trans women I’ve met (online and off) are all different types of people.

      5. Why if equality is at the heart of the Transmovement is freedom of speech (where it challenges their narrative) unacceptable.

      You can say this about literally any civil rights movement that seeks to change how a group of people are perceived and treated.

      6. Why do MTF believe the world must turn itself inside out to accommodate them?

      Do you even want honest responses?

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      • I do not know your age or experience , Daniel. My opening line should tell you that my concerns are vulnerable young people. The Trans movement provides answers to questions teens are asking about themselves, but not necessarily finding the right answers If Trans was advocating no medical intervention before 25, skilled therapists to consider other possible disorders (eg undiagnosed ASD in girls) and the risks well publicised rather than buried, I would have less of a problem. I see anxious children trying to ‘fix’ them selves to fit into a society that feels unwelcoming. Girls who decide to be men before they have become women. Oftentimes we need protected from our own faulty and confused thinking, I would not like to be held to my teenage thought processes. If adult Transwoman and men really cared they too would insist on waiting for maturity. To do otherwise undermines their legitimacy as role models. I think the DSM revision of gender dysphoria was wrong not to differentiate between the condition in youth and fully matured adults. Therein lies the problem. When therapists are being told by young people ‘ I don’t feel good enough at being male/female – they should reassure about gender diversity, not endorse Transition.’

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        • I apologize; my response was needlessly aggressive, and it detracted from whatever point I was trying to make. It’s difficult to see a large, diverse group of people- one that includes people who are my friends and acquaintances, reduced to a single stereotype and maligned because of it.

          Through complete serendipity I match your ideal transition timeline, and will assume I am not one of the people you are talking about. I have misgivings about your specific proposals, but do agree that the current best practices in transgender care aren’t good. Why this and how it might be fixed is something I’d have to get my own blog to detail, and I am not a person with any kind of influence.

          I have deeply mixed feelings about age requirements and maturity levels needed for transition. I wouldn’t want to be held permanently to my teenage decisions either, but I essentially lost ages 13-23. I agree it’s necessary, but hard to recommend people wait when you deeply wish you could have transitioned sooner.

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    • These are some really hurtful stereotypes, and I have repeatedly typed out and deleter responses to them. I follow this blog to read the dialogue between Purple Sage and commenters like Daniel who responded to the “questions for FtMs” thread. I am not a trans woman, but some of the people I care about are, and it’s really disappointing to see somebody say such cruel, false things about them. If you have issues with the medical establishment, write about those issues, but please remember that trans women are just individual human beings like you, with personalities and feelings and friends.

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        • I apologize for my sarcastic remark about HRT; it’s just that a lot of this “autogynephilia” discussion strikes me as motivated by an unfathomable panic about the prospect that somebody, somewhere, might be getting a sexual kick out of frilly clothes. And trying to articulate the weirdness of the framing (even for me, a vaguely transmasculine person who has the dullest conceivable dress sense) is making me sound obsessed with sexual kicks and frilly clothes. I can hardly imagine how an actual trans woman might feel in this situation.

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        • No, I don’t have a problem with a dude getting a kick out of frilly underwear. I have a problem with male fetishists entering private women’s spaces so they can see them undressing. If men want to dress up in the privacy of their own homes, that’s not an issue.

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        • “A sexual kick out of frilly clothes” – if only it were so simple. If only it weren’t men stealing women’s and girls’ clothes to masturbate into them. If only it weren’t men getting their sexual kicks from requiring women to play along with their paraphilias, their fetishes. If only it weren’t men parading around with erections and forcing unconsenting people (mostly women and girls, surprise) to be the audiences for their sexual displays. If only it weren’t men declaring lesbians in particular to be bigots!!! and murderers!!! for the unforgivable crime of not wanting them sexually. If only it weren’t men with a wholly regressive, misogynistic view of women as submissive fuckdolls, and such an obsession with this fantasy that they want to play it out with themselves as perfect “sissy” victim and validation from all and sundry. If only it wasn’t transvestites laying claim to being something no man can be, a woman (and likely at the same time disdaining people with dysphoria as “truscum”). If only it wasn’t men with mental illnesses galore and every last skerrick of male socialisation and male-pattern violence demanding that women be allowed no space away from them, no privacy, no safety, not even the words to name ourselves and our organs. Yeah, if only it were just a few blokes getting a tingle in the nethers from putting their own frilly knickers on.

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        • I agree. It is the same old, same old. Why do trans defenders come here, and repeat the same old lines from their cult manuals, thinking that we have never heard these trite things over and over? Yes, we know all of your arguments and none of them move us, Daniel and Deviant Logic! Maybe conjure up an original thought.

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        • Women trans for different reasons than men. There are literally decades of study documenting autogynephilia. Come back after you’ve bothered to read some.

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        • Where are you getting your information about this supposed epidemic of trans women sexually assaulting cis women? This is a thing I see in right wing talking points and sensationalistic news stories. It is not a thing I know any solid evidence for, nor does it match my experience.

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        • The lefter-leaning media usually don’t report crimes committed by trans people, but they should. It is common for men to assault women in bathrooms by secretly recording, peeping, or physically assaulting them. See this link round-up for example: https://gendertrender.wordpress.com/2011/03/04/men-love-the-ladies-restroom-this-week-in-the-news/
          And this article in which they had to reduce gender neutral washrooms at a university due to voyeurism: http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2015/10/06/u-of-t-bathrooms-voyeurism_n_8253970.html
          The trans community does not police who gets to call themselves trans. There is no criteria whatsoever for who is called trans since a trans identity is based on internal, invisible, subjective feelings and does not require any medical intervention. That’s why people like Danielle Muscato can claim to be women and get taken seriously. Since anyone can claim to be trans at any time, there is nothing stopping men who already have a desire to peep and perv on women to enter women’s private spaces under lax gender identity laws. As for trans women who have committed crimes against women, there are lots documented on Gender Trender and other trans-critical sites. The first two that came to mind are these two: Dana McCallum, who raped his wife while identifying as a woman https://gendertrender.wordpress.com/2014/10/07/is-transgender-the-get-out-of-rape-free-card-twitter-rapist-dana-mccallum-walks-free/
          and Julianna Fialkowski who raped and strangled an underage victim while serving as a transgender youth counsellor https://4thwavenow.com/2015/10/09/transgender-youth-group-leader-charged-with-rape-and-strangulation-of-a-minor/
          I do not believe that all trans women are predators; however, some of them are, and the very lax criteria and vague laws make it possible for any male to enter women’s spaces just by claiming a “gender identity.” The desire that men have to wear women’s clothing is often linked to a sexual fetish, and the trans community refuses to distinguish between obvious fetishists and people who are simply dealing with dysphoria. Women do not wish to share private spaces with any males, particularly those with sexual fetishes and who enjoy crossing women’s boundaries. If the trans community cared about women, it would recognize our valid concerns and promote single-user washrooms or separate options for trans people so that women can still have sex-segregated facilities. However, trans activists do NOT want separate washrooms, they want to give males full access to women’s facilities regardless of the consequences for women.

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        • Maybe go to Gender Trender for 1000s upon 1000s of examples of predatory transwomen, and no, GT is definitely NOT on the right! Actually, there is plenty of criticism of trans on the left, coming from all kinds of people for different reasons. Some oppose this fad simply because it is medically dangerous, and transition doesn’t even usually work to resolve gender dysphoria. Yeah, those pesky facts. DeviantLogic, you keep telling people to educate themselves and do their homework, but if you aren’t aware of any transwomen attacking real women, then it is you that needs that education you speak of. Wake up! Those of us on this blog aren’t new to this topic. Try to catch up.

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      • Hi DeviantLogic, I believe you are responding to PunkWorked?
        There are tons of transwomen who are overtly sexual (because they have a sexual fetish known as autogynephilia) and who rely on stereotypes about women to prop up their identity (makeup, high heels, dresses, sexual submission, etc) and who make very sexist arguments about why they believe they are women. If you believe this is not representative of trans women, then I have to ask, where are all the regular, normal trans women who aren’t relying on stereotypes and don’t have a sexual fetish, and why aren’t they speaking out against the weirdos who have been speaking for them? Because there is an entire movement going on right now being led by gross male-to-trans fetishists, and if there are any trans women out there who do not agree with these people, it seems like they should be saying something. The only transwoman I can think of who speaks out against the weird shit going on in trans activism is Miranda Yardley. There have been a few other transwomen critical of the trans movement but they often end up changing their minds and joining trans activism eventually.

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        • Yes, that was meant to be a response to punkworked.

          First of all, not all trans women dress the same way. To pick one of your examples, I have personally met trans women who love high heels and trans women who only wear flat shoes and trans women who have sensible shoes for everyday activities and high heels for special occasions. But second of all, to say that trans women are “overtly sexual” when they wear makeup and high heels is deeply messed up.

          I have had people project all sorts of sexual things onto my body and behavior when they read me as a woman: my smiles and friendliness are overtly sexual; my jeans are too tight and overtly sexual; the sundress I am wearing on this day that is too hot for clothes is overtly sexual; and by the way, why do I have to be such a grumpy, unfeminine frump? That is not an okay thing to do to cis women, or weird AFAB nonbinary people (which is what I consider myself). It’s not an okay thing to do to trans women either.

          For women in general, there is very little space between “asking for it” and “ugly frump”. For trans women in particular, there is no almost space between “overtly sexual stereotype of a woman” and “so masculine, not really a woman at all”.

          As for what trans women like to do in the bedroom… I know that radical feminism entails certain views about which kinds of sexuality are and aren’t okay, but I keep coming back to “how is a stranger’s sex life any of your business?” The amount of inappropriate attention directed at trans women’s sex lives and private parts of their bodies, from all quarters… that would make me strident and angry too. It would make me a lot more strident and angry than most of the “normal” trans women I know. You ask where those women are. They are not trying to convince strangers on the internet that they deserve to exist, because they have lives to live and mental health to take care of. Smart ladies; I should learn to emulate them better.

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        • As for what trans women like to do in the bedroom… I know that radical feminism entails certain views about which kinds of sexuality are and aren’t okay, but I keep coming back to “how is a stranger’s sex life any of your business?” The amount of inappropriate attention directed at trans women’s sex lives and private parts of their bodies, from all quarters… that would make me strident and angry too. It would make me a lot more strident and angry than most of the “normal” trans women I know. You ask where those women are. They are not trying to convince strangers on the internet that they deserve to exist, because they have lives to live and mental health to take care of. Smart ladies; I should learn to emulate them better.

          You might want to look up what the cotton ceiling is. If MTTs were minding their own business and going about their lives nobody would care. But when you have “activisim” that revolves around demanding lesbians validate them via sex, and calling lesbians bigots and murderers for being, gosh, not sexually attracted to men,, then yeah, there is going to be a focus on what is happening – or what MYTs want to happen – in the bedroom.

          I presume you know the term NAMALT – not all men are like that? It comes up in discussions of what men, as a class, do to women. I have to bite my tongue not to use it on occasion; it’s easy to see class behaviour as an accusation at someone you care about. But what you need to know is that over 80% – I think it’s more like 90 – of MTTs have autogynephilia, which is frequently comorbid with cluster B personality disorders such as narcissism. They do, as a class, display at least as much male-pattern violence as men in general.

          These matters are documented. It isn’t attacking anyone to state them and it doesn’t help anyone to say NATWALT.

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        • Purple Sage, I am not claiming that no trans woman ever got off on wearing frilly underwear. I am claiming that it’s really not your business what trans women get off on in the privacy of their own bedrooms.

          Also, just because something is sexual in some contexts does not mean it is a sexual advance in all contexts. Maybe my girlfriend likes the way my ass looks in those tight jeans, and maybe I wear them partly because I know she likes them, and maybe I even check myself out in the mirror sometimes. That does not mean that I want random strangers to sexualize my tight jeans.

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        • Dépaysement, I don’t have the energy, nor do I know where to begin. I’ll just leave you with this ironic observation: if the real problem is that trans women have too many orgasms, you should be in favor of making sure they all have access to HRT.

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      • Perhaps our focus should be on challenging the blind acceptance of a Transchild and ensuring Transition is an adult decision. For so many young people it is a false flag solution to other trauma and challenges. Protecting childhood in all aspects would be a good place to begin. Toxic masculinity and femininity deny both genders the innocence of growing up with the freedom to express and explore without a socially constructed sense of other, and the loneliness that accompanies that. i think the Transgender movement could gain greatly from becoming the gatekeepers and protecting the most vulnerable, children.

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        • I am not a public policy expert and I do not have kids, but I’m not convinced that trans people constitute a danger that children need to be protected from.

          Can you say more about what specific things you are worried about? Two things I can think of that you might be concerned about are medical interventions, and information about the existence of trans adults.

          For medical stuff: My understanding is that the usual interventions for trans kids are social transition and puberty blockers. My understanding is also that these interventions are relatively low-risk from a medical standpoint and easily reversible (unlike a typical puberty, actually). But I neither have children nor know a lot about the treatment of children, so feel free to share any extra information you have. My medical knowledge comes mostly from my dealings with my insurance company as an adult.

          For information: I think that (age-appropriate) information about the existence of trans people is good for kids. In general, I think it’s good for kids to understand that the adults around them are different from each other, and the being different does not have present an obstacle to living together in a basically normal and non-violent way.

          But maybe you had something else in mind?

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        • Young people, particularly over thinking sensitive types ‘try on’ identities as they grow. They are searching for a sense of self. The danger in Trans identity is that it is made to seem unequivocal and fixed, unlike sexuality. I would never agree medical interventions are harmless, nor would I rely on the pharmaceutical industry or cosmetic industry for that reassurance. There is a lack of gate-keeping, dismissal of healthy doubt and fear on the part of professionals to plant any. Genuine Transgender affects a minority, but education of their existence should include that and the fact that such feelings are not exclusive to being Transgender. Transing children puts them on a train toward a destiny that may not be right for them. I view non conforming females as at particular risk, for reasons previously outlined on this block. I do not see how the Trans movement has added to diversity and zcceptance. In fact, it has reduced acceptance of the different ways to be male and female, in dress and behaviour. That is so dangerous. What is now deemed social Transition by way of dressing/grooming is now branded Trans identity. Fear stalks the media and medical industry. Maybe it is time the Trans community and de-Transitioners spoke out as gate keepers instead of shouting down those who try to. But you tag equality or transphobic onto anyone’s argument and they are silenced. We have become a society of reductionists at the mercy of what is possible but not always what is right.

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        • Adults differing from each other is not an endorsement of trans, nor an indication of trans’ legitimate existence, beyond an internal mental state of gender dysphoria experienced by some individuals in the current social climate. No, kids should NOT be indoctrinated and force-fed gender-essentialist gruel. We do NOT know the long-term effects of puberty blockers and can not assume that they are safe. We simply don’t have that data, as this is the 1st time in human history that puberty blockers have been abused in this manner, en masse.

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        • Okay, that all sounds a bit vague. Concretely, do you know what the current best practices are for treating trans kids? Do you know which medical interventions you are talking about and what their typical effects are? As an activist, you should make sure to inform yourself.

          Beemyn and Rankin’s book The Lives of Transgender People is not specifically about kids, but it’s a helpful and informative study about the range of trans people, including information about the different ways medical transition can look. The authors combined a large survey with detailed follow-up interviews. Even if you hate trans people, it would be a good idea for you to understand what it is you hate.

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        • Another false argument, that people who can see through the trans fad are hateful. YOU are the one coming off as hateful and intolerant of anyone who sees this differently than you. 4th Wave Now regularly publishes all of the latest studies on transgender and best practices. Are you aware that one such study shows that transing people does NOTHING to reduce suicidal ideology? You see, some of us believe in evidence-based medicine. Why subject a patient to potential medical complications when they derive no benefit? Please do some reading. You need to stop getting all of your (biased) info from PFLAG and HRC.

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        • The article is interesting and fairly balanced. However, as Professional guidance is highly ambiguous and omits key information relevant to the issue. Perhaps due to lack of research or space it fails to consider:-
          Different motivations of girls and boys in presenting as Trans.
          Impact of disorders such as Aspergers, Caetaxia, ADHD, OCD, and many other conditions which can result in gender non=conformity and be a source of great confusion and distress in the adolescent period.
          I struggle to understand why gender conformity, a socially constructed variable is given so much weight in diagnosis.
          The article seems to skim a little the fact that the side effects of chemical intervention are largely unknown.
          The article ignores the exposure children have to the Internet and fails to advise a full exploration of any ‘faulty thinking’ resulting from this.
          The article assumes an understanding of what visually and behaviorally determines what a man/woman girl/boy is.
          Perhaps I am old fashioned but in my day gender non conformity was a source of pride, statement of rebellion, assertion of individuality, for girls it denoted equality and rejection of our mother’s subservient role in society. For male friends make up and exotic dress was fashionable, cool, trendy, rebellious. Our role models were Boy George and Annie Lennox.
          The article is, for me, too embracing of gender non-conformity as a medical or psychological difficulty. I fully understand the small minority require surgery and chemical intervention. But the article actually attempts to downplay figures suggesting the vast majority desist. That so many young people present with gender non conformity is healthy. What is unhealthy, and no one appears to be addressing is the society that idealises extreme versions of male and female. The problem, in the majority of cases lies in society not in the individual. We probably need a whole new language to define the issues but we are failing children if we fail to suggest to them their version of male or female is much safer and healthier and peers who fully conform.

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        • Perhaps I am old fashioned but in my day gender non conformity was a source of pride, statement of rebellion, assertion of individuality, for girls it denoted equality and rejection of our mother’s subservient role in society. For male friends make up and exotic dress was fashionable, cool, trendy, rebellious. Our role models were Boy George and Annie Lennox.

          It makes me sad that there is such a generation gap in the feminist movement. A lot of women of your generation seem to think that people of my generation dislike gender nonconformity, or that we believe all gender nonconforming are obligated to transition. I wish we could have a real conversation where I told you I did not believe those things and you actually listened to me.

          Sadly, I do not think that conversation is going to happen on this blog. (Or maybe it will happen with some of those lovely trans guys who have the patience of saints. I would like that, even though I do not have the patience of a very patient sinner even.)

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        • Is patience restricted to Transguys? Isn’t that a rather sexist comment? If it is genuinely your experience, have you any thoughts on why that might be? Perhaps I am missing the irony.

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  2. This exchange is interesting for the fact that it exposes the pre-occupation by some MTF with sex, clothes and appearance. Gender is not about any of those. Nor is it helpful to define yourself as a woman by re-defining woman with an invented meaningless term. Daniel gave a considered reflective open minded response in his reply and I commend that. Deviant logic managed to destroy his own efforts at an argument and confirm the validity of the questions. Finally, thank you Purplesage for responding so assertively and intelligently.

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    • You’re right that Daniel is a much nicer and less sarcastic person than I am. (I hope I have not sabotaged his efforts at being an ambassador.)

      I’m not sure why this shows anything about any MTF people; as far as I know none have responded to this post. Thank you for being thoughtful about pronouns; I actually prefer they/them.

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  3. Well that conversation moved quickly, not sure of the best place to reply so I’ll make a new thread. Also props to DeviantLogic, don’t sell your own patience short. I have to take a break from commenting for a day or two for a reason.

    I think we are talking past each other. DeviantLogic and I brought up that the stereotypes about trans women are cruel, and the responses we got focus on autogynephilia. I don’t entirely understand this. AGP as I understand it is defined as arousal at the thought of yourself as a woman, if you are a cis man. This definitely is a fetish for some cis people, I’ve seen different versions of it around the internet. However, this also is a really natural reaction to dysphoria, I have something like it myself. But I think that more is being added onto the definition, someone said it is comorbid with narcissism and several have implied that it is the sole reason for most(?) trans women to want transition. That is the definition people are talking about when they say that “Autogynephilia doesn’t exist” and I agree. If this is the main objection to trans women being in any women’s spaces, political or private, I think this argument will come down to a disagreement of fact.

    Bathrooms and locker rooms have been brought up by several people, and this is something I’ve always wanted an opportunity to ask about, because I never believed the objection. It came across as a diversionary tactic, but I’m guessing it’s a difference in experience. I grew up being told to never go in the Philadelphia public bathrooms alone because I might be attacked. Of the three fights I was in in high school, two were in the all-female locker rooms. I shared this comment with my boyfriend, and he remembers being told similar things about train station bathrooms in Chicago. People treating these as the Last Female Safe Space is…. strange to me. I’m more sympathetic to calls for political or dating female only groups, but I still hope there is some kind of compromise that can be reached. This is another situation that might only be resolved when being trans is better understood medically.

    I’ve seen calls for trans women to push back against overly sexualized trans women (I’m not sure what exactly is being referred to as overly sexualized and in what context), and calls for trans people to push for later transition and more strict parameters for transition in general. What do you want this to look like? What would constitute doing those things?

    As a final note, because younger people questioning their gender has come up several times: I’ve had one ongoing conversation with an 18 year old about transition advice. This was seven months ago on an MMO we both played, I had known them for about two years and given them advice in the past on different issues. I can talk about that experience, what I said and why, if there is interest.

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    • DeviantLogic and I brought up that the stereotypes about trans women are cruel,

      Got any complaints about the stereotypes of women that MTTs use to claim they’re female?

      There’s no such thing as “cis”. Don’t apply that term to us.

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      • I’m sure someone, somewhere, has used misogynistic stereotypes to justify transition. I’m also a transmedicalist, and generally think transitioning because you are masculine or feminine will end badly. If anyone with that opinion show up on this blog, rest assured I’ll call them out on it.

        Cisgender is a quick and useful way to say “Not Trans”. But I can type out “women who are not trans” every time if purplesagefem insists.

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        • Women who are not trans, are “women” not “cis.” No need to type out a big long phrase when “women” will do. We are real, actual, authentic, organic, natural women! We are phenomenal women! We are NOT men in dresses, who believe in a mystical feminine essence, that magically transforms their penises and testicles into female reproductive organs; trans are cheap imitations of the original. “Cis” is a slur. Stop using slurs!

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    • Here is a resource file on autogynephilia that links to books and articles in PDF: https://autogynephiliatruth.wordpress.com/2015/08/02/library-page-of-pdf-articles-about-gender-identity-fakeness-and-autogynephilia-reality/

      I think the reason you don’t know why women object to men entering our bathrooms is because you don’t have an understanding of male predatory behaviour and how women feel when our spaces have been invaded by strange men. This is basically the same thing as not knowing what women are going on about when we talk about male violence in general. Just read newspapers on a regular basis and observe how often men are violent. Talk to the women in your life about how they’ve been harmed by men. There is an epidemic of male violence against women, worldwide, that ranges from mild sexual harassment to outright sexual slavery. Recognizing this pattern requires facing the facts of human reproductive anatomy and how our socialization and the way we are treated in society is determined by our reproductive sex (not gender).

      The fist fights teen girls get into in a high school bathroom are in no way comparable to what men do to women in public bathrooms. https://gendertrender.wordpress.com/2011/03/04/men-love-the-ladies-restroom-this-week-in-the-news/

      If you aren’t aware of trans women being overly sexual you haven’t been paying any attention whatsoever to what’s been going on in trans activism. Have you heard of Stefonknee, the 53-year-old father of seven who likes to pretend to be a 6-year-old girl while getting fucked in the ass by his “daddy”? Despite being an obvious fetishist with pedophile fantasies, he has support from trans organisations and a documentary made about his “trans” identity. https://gendertrender.wordpress.com/2015/11/29/transwoman-stefonknee-wolscht-lives-life-as-a-six-year-old-girl/

      There’s also guys like this who openly admit that the reason they’re interested in being transwomen is because they like watching porn with transwomen in it and they don’t even have sex dysphoria:
      https://purplesagefem.wordpress.com/2016/07/31/clothing-is-my-favorite-thing-about-being-trans/

      If you don’t think guys like this deserve to be spokespeople for transwomen, then why do you suppose trans organisations support people like this and refuse to differentiate between them and non-fetish people who want to deal with dysphoria and quietly live their lives? The trans movement has been infested with weirdos, and it’s definitely in your best interest to face this fact.

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      • You are conflating two very different things: incidents of cis men harassing women in bathrooms (with no suggestion that these men claimed to be trans women) and the information that some trans women have sexual fetishes that you find upsetting (with no suggestion that these women are inflicting those fetishes on unconsenting parties). Are there some trans women who do violent or sexually inappropriate things? Sure. There are also some cis women who do violent or sexually inappropriate things. Sexual harassment is not excused when the perpetrator has a marginalized identity. But most trans women are not sexual predators. (Hell, most cis men are not sexual predators; it’s just that the minority who are manage to do a lot of damage.)

        You seem to think I have never suffered violence, abuse, or harassment at the hands of men. This is false. I have never suffered violence, abuse, or harassment at the hands of trans women, despite knowing several and dating a few. I do find it profoundly upsetting that you are more obsessed with speculating about my ex-girlfriends’ masturbatory habits than me and them put together. (And no, you don’t get to know what their fantasies were because basic privacy. If you would like appropriate information about sex with trans women, I recommend Alison Moon’s excellent book Girl Sex 101. That also has great anatomical information about non-trans women’s bodies using scientific vocabulary, and great discussions of pleasure, communication, and consent.)

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        • It is unfair to ask women to carry the burden of determining which transwomen are sexual predators, since some clearly are. They should use the facilities for their sex: the men’s room. We have heard your fallacious arguments before, BTW. Please try some original material. No True Scotsman is really overdone by trans defenders. If I offered you a bowl of candy, and only some candies were poisoned, would you take any? Women (real ones) don’t want any poisoned candies either.

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        • It comes down to:

          You’re all men.

          You’ll never be anything else because it isn’t possible to change sex any more than itis species.

          Stay out of our places. Use the men’s (your sex) or fight for your own separate places just like women had to.

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        • DeviantLogic already hit the most important points, but I’ll add my thoughts.

          I’ve been pretty happy, relived even, to largely bow out of feminist discourse. You implied that months of bullying ending in a broken nose at the hands of girls is less traumatic than similar treatment would have been from boys. I don’t know how to respond to that, so I won’t.

          Building on what DL said, most of those examples of bathroom assault were not men claiming to be trans women. They were men who wanted to commit assault disregarding the female sign hung outside of the bathroom door, which has been a risk since bathrooms were invented. Trans activist aren’t arguing that laws shouldn’t apply to people once they enter a bathroom, and if people are assaulted, recorded, or harassed, the perpetrator should be arrested and charged. No matter who the perpetrator is.

          – why do you suppose trans organisations support people like this and refuse to differentiate between them and non-fetish people who want to deal with dysphoria and quietly live their lives?

          Because there is no good way to differentiate. Having strange fetishes, being an asshole, even being a dangerous person, none of it somehow disqualifies a person from also being a dysphoric trans person. I’ve run into other trans people who are very willing to say that any trans woman or man who is a criminal isn’t trans, I’m extremely opposed to this. We’re people, with the capacity for good and evil that everyone else has. But we are in a social climate where the bad actions of some reflect on us all, and I can understand the fear that drives the denials.

          Finally, I’m a weirdo. I’m in favor of weirdos being allowed to be weird as long as they aren’t harming others. I doubt we are will reach and agreement on that, but it’s a moral axiom for me.

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        • So you’re okay with dangerous criminals being trans? Do you realize that, according to that policy, male rapists can claim to be trans and switch over the female prisons? (They’re starting to do that already.) Are you okay with that?
          As for the thing about you being bullied, I did not know what your particular situation was. But I do know that, generally speaking, men have more upper-body strength and have a far higher tendency toward violence and are far more likely to cause harm than women are. Generally speaking, yes, you are in more danger from men than you are from women. That doesn’t in any way mean that the abuse you endured from girls wasn’t abuse. It almost feels as though you were twisting what I said.

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        • @purplesagefem

          I was responding to “The fist fights teen girls get into in a high school bathroom are in no way comparable to what men do to women in public bathrooms.” I did not mean to twist your words, it was an emotional response. Thank you, sincerely, for agreeing that it was abuse. I don’t think continuing this will be productive.

          “So you’re okay with dangerous criminals being trans?” Being okay with it is not relevant to the question. I believe that dysphoria is a neurological condition, it’s not something that people choose to have or not have. There are bad, dangerous people in every demographic. I talked about this in the comment I just posted to PunkWorked, but it’s a medical problem that is currently only diagnosable via self-report, and our current system is not even sort of set up to deal with that.

          Trans people and prison is another long comment, and I sure as hell don’t have all the answers. Generally people aren’t denied medical care because they have committed crimes, and putting a trans person who has extensively medically transitioned with their birth sexed population would be dangerous to them. But you are right, the nature of self-reporting leaves a very abuse able loop hole. Its two groups of people with very dire, life threatening needs that need to be balanced, and I don’t know where that balance is.

          Reforming prison so it’s less of a hell on earth would be a great start, though.

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        • I am open to believing that for some people it’s neurological, but it isn’t for everybody who is currently identifying as trans. Please consider the women who are imprisoned and their right not to be housed with male sex offenders.

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        • Exactly. “Transwomen” do just fine in segregated units in male prisons. They are physically separated from violent inmates. Even if they don’t like it, no one likes being incarcerated, and they are there to be punished and rehabilitated, not catered to. Also, not every “transwoman” is a dainty little flower. Many of them have military training, huge stature, and training in boxing, martial arts, wrestling, and other aggressive sports.

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        • There is no evidence that trans is neurological, and if it was, why has it only popped up in recent decades? I am a bit older than most posting here. People of my generation didn’t have “transition” on their radar, therefore they were more inclined to accept their lot in life. This does not imply that women were ever okay with 2nd class treatment. They simply did not see transition as viable, and they played the hand they were dealt. It seems likely that trans is a product of social contagion, since many (most?) report trans identities after bingeing on Reddit, YouTube, Tumblr, and other social media, or they decide to become trans due to their peers doing so, or to be unique and get attention and kudos. Women have come so far, yet we have so much farther to go! Many women are not comfortable with being socially subordinate and the “trans solution” is presented as a cure. However, for many, it falls flat when they finally understand that it is not one’s identity that matters, but how they are identified by others, that determines how they will be treated. Detransitioners will reach a critical mass, and start speaking out and suing, and then this Pet Rock for the 21st Century will fizzle out. Can’t be something you are not! Love the body you are in!

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  4. Daniel, I would’ve interested to know the advise you are and presenting issues. The fact a gamer friend of 18 sought advise from you should also make you aware how vulnerable young people are. I do not include you in this but vulnerable young people being groomed by predatory and dysfunctional adults is not new. It would serve the Trans community well to ‘out’ the individuals who do this where they are known. As Purple Sage says, allowing dangerous individuals who are a threat to children to hide under the umbrella term Trans undermines your claim to equality. Is the Trans community brave enough to speak out and warn? Or will they wait until the scandals hit the media?

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    • Thank you for giving me the benefit of the doubt, I get the impression this is a very personal issue for you. I don’t know if this is at all comforting, or will be seen as too little, but the online trans communities I’ve been part of, some with the focus on educating questioning trans people, do take abuse allegations seriously. There were three people who were outed as abusers and basically shunned, in the time that I was more heavily involved. This doesn’t prevent them from popping up again under a different name, and the callout/warning posts get harder to find as time rolls by. This isn’t an ignored or unknown issue, but I wish there were ways to do more.

      My experience with helping out my friend: we already had a pretty close online friendship, and dysphoria symptoms had come up previously before either of us identified as trans (‘having breasts is THE WORST, I hate how they feel and rest and move and look’, and similar things). They knew that I was socially transitioning, and said they also wondered if they might be trans. I asked if me coming, and talking about how much better I felt, was influencing them. They told me they had been wondering if they were trans since about 14, but felt too afraid to bring it up with anyone. Given their situation this seemed likely.
      I talked about what I was doing in therapy, learning to accept and acknowledge my emotions and feelings, even if they didn’t ‘make sense’. I talked about what it felt like to stop mentally gendering myself female, and how they might start with that and see if it had a similar effect. I told them that a good way to see if binding is right is to get a compression sports bra, and wear it with much baggier shirts. I recommended they do that for a week or two, and see how they felt.

      Time passes, they like it and ask if I have any ways of dealing with mental distress caused by my period. I had developed my own coping methods by then, but they are kind of disturbing and I didn’t feel comfortable sharing. I suggested instead that they try to not think about it. Stop tracking it, stop anticipating it, stop looking for signs that it’s oncoming. While it happening just stick a pad down there and pretend any moisture you feel is sweat.
      Around then we started talking about pronouns and names. They were incredibly unsure if they were nonbinary or a boy, and I tried to say that that wasn’t the best way to think about it. Transition is something you do because it helps your mental health, the end goal is to feel better, not be any one specific thing. If they didn’t know if they were a girl, boy, or neither, it was fine, just do what makes you feel happy and healthy and you’ll figure it out. (I’m paraphrasing a lot here, this was a multiday talk that clarified my own thoughts on the matter as well) Eventually they asked me to use ‘they’ pronoun, and a gender neutral nickname.

      Hormones and surgery only came up in a roundabout way (when they were 17, they had a UTI for three months because their family couldn’t be bothered to get them medical care. I offered to contact CPS for them but they said they had gone through that previously and it didn’t help. They had a job and plans for college, and just wanted to ride it out till then). They didn’t bother talking to their family about any of this, and knew that they wouldn’t get financial help with transitioning, or anything else. In-between cursing out their sack of shit family, I said it was probably a net good to wait until they had been out of their house for a couple years to more seriously transition. I was lucky, I had a pretty good home environment and nothing in my history that could masquerade as dysphoria. They did, and I tried to make sure they knew it was a possibility. But if wearing a compression bra and getting a short haircut helped them in the meantime, do it.

      I also recommended them some of the blogs I found helpful when I was questioning. Mostly on tumblr, most had ‘truscum’ in the name. I didn’t agree with everything ever written on them, and we had some interesting conversations about it. I also recommended some blogs of detransitioners that I had read, to try and check if I fit the profile or had any major commonalities. (As an aside, ty to Purplesage for blogging about the detransitioner survey, many of my impressions about that community were supported by the survey data). We talked less about them, but I got the impression it did make my friend more willing to wait and try to receive some kind of therapy before medical transition. They were full steam ahead on socially transitioning though, and that was their call.

      Neither of us play WoW anymore, but we do keep up via email. They still socially nonbinary, but focusing on school and work for the most part. Being out of their parents’ house did wonders for their outlook, and we keep in touch. They are pretty excited to get updates on my HTR, and I can tell they are thinking about it.

      So, that was that. I tried my best to give good advice, and urged caution in words and my own actions. I didn’t shy away from talking about how transition helped me, and specific signs of dysphoria and what it feels like to lessen it.

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  5. Daniel, thank you for sharing, you sound compassionate and empathic, I suppose a lot in what you describe underline my concerns. Difficult relationships at home, search for identity… What I also encounter are girls who ‘collapse’ under the pressure to be what is deemed attractive. Many are perfectionists and feel they fail to live up to expectations. Many have endured bullying at school from boys about their appearance. It is in fact the’social transition’ that alarms, society now seems to be unable to understand the ‘tomboy’ look as simply that. It seems as if those girls who wish to abandon the high maintenance very feminised look have to go Trans. I suspect many will (if left alone) become more self accepting as adults but the emotional, social and physical risks of adopting Trans are long term significant. You talk about three being’outed’. The concept of such behaviour is not widely known. I work in education and while resources on paedophilia, self harm and anorexia promoting online activity is understood, what you refer to has never been considered. It is something those working with young people would benefit from understanding. Young people themselves would also benefit although the fear is always that this can lead them to seek it out. I sympathise with any person who feels uncomfortable in their gender, but I wish it could be resolved without chemicals and surgery. Being a girl is pretty shit, but if they can wait to discover womanhood it is worth it. I hope you find resolution without missing out on too much in life, it is a challenging path you have chosen. I wonder if society was different would we be seeing the numbers of girls choosing Trans reduce. I do think of it as a coping strategy for anxiety around appearance. Where only social less harmful than some strategies. On an aside the young people I work with share qualities of strength, quirky original interests, strong social justice outlooks, sensitivity and introversion. They are less socially skilled than their female peers and all share a gaming hobby. All were late onset, sudden Trans declaring after becoming very passionate about gay rights. All suffered a bereavement or family break down beforehand. Professional ‘in the field’ seemed to disregard all of that in their push to promote their authenticity as Trans boys. One even went so far as to tell them they ‘looked more like a boy than a girl and could convert their fat to muscle to be more attractive’ . I think we agree on the dangers Iit would be good to better educate on those issues without the Terf slur being hurled.

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    • Thank you for your reply, I try very hard to be empathetic in my responses to everyone, it’s nice to hear I hit the mark at least sometimes. I honestly think we want many of the same things in regards to the trans community, though from different perspectives. I suspected that being transgender (transsexual is probably a better term) was a neurological condition, and having been on testosterone for six months I am convinced of it. It’s hard to describe without getting very metaphorical, but my brain works differently on T, and it’s vastly healthier. Heck, I can skip the metaphors, I no longer have clinical depression, or a long list of other bizarre symptoms, and nothing else I tried was able to achieve that. Gender and gender expression is ancillary to that.

      Therapy was helpful in getting to this point, but by and large I had to cobble together a diagnosis by comparing my experience to other people who had transitioned and liked it, and people who transitioned and then realized it was a mistake. It’s doable, but also the most nerve wracking experience of my life. I had to accept that I might utterly regret transition and be back and square one to finally take the risk. I hate that this is the state of affairs, it’s better than the old diagnostic criteria of “how gender conforming will you become?” but it’s miles away from how every other clinical problem is diagnosed.

      I dearly hope that this condition becomes better understood, because I don’t want anyone to transition who doesn’t need to. I wish I could offer some guess or reassurance about the kids you work with, but I don’t know. Gender, gender expectations and rolls, and relation to your body are so completely intertwined that it’s hard to tease any of them apart. Compared to a lot of people facing transition, my friend included, I liked being a girl. It was a social roll I felt able to fulfil, and got some enjoyment out of it. It made sorting out my motivation for transition much easier, but I know most people are not that lucky.

      I don’t know if you are interested or already know, but there is pushback against people transitioning because of gender stereotypes within the community. Google transmedicalist for a start, but most of the community is on social media and I’m unaware of an archive of any kind.

      I wish these tensions didn’t have to exist either, and I’m hoping that’s something increased medical understanding will help. It seems that so much of the anger, on both sides, is driven by pure fear. It sucks.

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      • I really don’t think fear has much to do with it on either side. Trans is upset that their fantasies are punctured by facts and (real) feminists are upset that trans is trying to destroy / obfuscate the meaning of sex. This obfuscation has real consequences for women, who have historically, and to this day, suffered sex discrimination due to our reproductive capacity. The discrimination we face is due to our biological sex, and not due to our beliefs about gender or due to our gender identities. We can NOT opt out. It doesn’t matter how we identify; it matters how we are identified. HUGE difference!

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  6. It is interesting the chemicals had such an mpact on your well being. This is very left field but I do wonder how much our modern environment has interfered with our hormones. Could we trust the medical profession to admit this or is Transitioning a less costly option than being sued? I am glad your depression is helped, I hope that continues. I googled Transmedicalist as you advised which was a revelation. In addition to all the other self generating terms no wonder children are confused. It also seems to be a place of self diagnosis and assumed authority. To an outsider it looks like the medical profession are following rather than leading on this and no one of real authority is able to bring critical thinking to bear. What is clear vis a vid Transcum and such terms is how abusive the community is. That alone should be enough to raise child abuse concerns. Thank you Daniel for bringing your perspective.

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    • “It is interesting the chemicals had such an impact on your well being.”

      Yes, this is interesting. Of course, most people prescribed a medication believe that it is working and attribute positive changes to it. It seems that the mind is very powerful and suggestible. We have all heard of the placebo effect and double blind trials. However, a week or 2 ago on the TV news show 60 Minutes, there was a new twist. In a clinical study, doctors knew they were giving their patients placebos, and patients knew they were receiving placebos. The result? Most patients reported improvements with the known placebos! In fact, one woman interviewed decided to seek out this (non)treatment after the study ended, because the placebo was the only thing that worked well for her. Amazing!

      On the other hand, both sexes have estrogen, progesterone, and testosterone. The difference is that men have much more testosterone (about 10x higher than women, though individuals vary widely) and women have more estrogen and progesterone (amounts varying with women’s monthly cycles.) It is possible for women to really benefit from a bit of testosterone, and we know the hormone has real effects on people physically. Most of the data on females and testosterone comes from sports doping, but with this transgender trend, we will soon have much more data on nonathletic women who use testosterone.

      “I do wonder how much our modern environment has interfered with our hormones.”

      It appears that the modern environment has interfered with our hormones quite a bit. There have been many research studies on this. Endocrine disrupters are all around us. The effects on some species, such as frogs / tadpoles are more evident than the effects on humans, yet we know that humans are also effected by endocrine disrupters. We are living in a toxic chemical soup and even the Inuits test positive for these chemicals.

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